Sorry No Rapture, but Persecution is Coming!

[Nathan]

Sorry No Rapture, but Persecution is Coming!
Nathan Leal - June 5, 2008

6 "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another."
Matthew 24:6-10

Today's western church is asleep and deceived under a false sense of security.

It is amazing that a deception that is clearly unbiblical has taken such a strong hold of western theology.

If you were to ask the average Christian, "What is the Rapture?" You will most likely hear, "Well, that is when God takes all the Christians off of the earth before the horrible tribulation starts!"

To seek the truth from God, we must be totally honest with ourselves.

In reading the above verse from Matthew 24, we see Jesus mentioning "the beginning of sorrows".

This period in the end times includes:
1. Wars and rumors of war
2. Famines
3. Pestilence
4. Earthquakes in various places

Popular TV preachers will recite these verses to convince their listeners that we are indeed in the end times. They will then say, " ...Therefore the Rapture is about to happen! It could happen, right now, while we are sitting here!"

But let us again examine the words of Jesus:

"All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you..."

The part that they do NOT mention is what we see in verse 9 of Matthew 24; "...Then they will deliver you up "

Now where do we find the "Rapture" happening between verse 8 and verse 9? We don't! What we do find is the "beginning of sorrows" going right into Christian persecution (..delivered up..). In addition to persecution, we read Jesus saying, "...they will deliver you up to TRIBULATION!"

In other words, according to the words of Jesus, Christians are going to be persecuted in tribulation! Or in the "Tribulation"!

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the TRUTH and the Life." He also said that when the Holy Spirit came, He would lead us into all Truth. If we are truly Disciples of Christ, we must accept ALL truth, no matter where it leads.

Someday, in the future, Christians are going to begin facing persecution, arrest and death. According to Jesus, "Then they will deliver you up...And then many will be offended, will betray one another,..." the coming persecution will occur because people in the church will begin "turning in" the true Saints of God to government authorities!

Imagine this! Christians, or actually "lukewarm hypocrites" will become Judas Iscariots to the true saints of God. How could this be?

How it will Happen

The Bible says, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2 Thess. 2:11

A lie! What kind of lie would possibly make people believe that it is a good thing to "tattle" on fellow Christians and have them incarcerated into prison?

Are you ready? Four Words. Four simple words that will convince ignorant people to do the inconceivable. The four words are "The War on Terror!"

In our post 911 world, the U.S. Government has legislated new laws that have essentially erased the constitutional rights to the citizenry.

The "War on Terror", on paper sounds like a good thing. In a perfect world, these laws would be used to catch members of radical groups who would do us harm.

Unfortunately, the way that these laws have been written leaves a very broad definition of "terrorists" and "enemy combatants". And these laws in the hands of a self-serving leader, give the American Government the latitude for abuse to U.S. citizens and Christians.

Would our dear "Christian" President use these laws against God's people? Hopefully not. But we do not know who our future president will be.

Coming to America!

Many Christian falsely believe that dictatorial rule could never come to the land of the "free", the United States. But friends, all of the laws are already in place to do just that!

Are these laws going to be abused in the near future? In the future, yes! In the NEAR future, I do not know!

Many Christians have also stated, "Well, I have nothing to hide. I am good. Those laws would not be used against me!" Again, friends, in a perfect world that is true, they would not. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world.

Thus the heart of this message, "To all, that will hear these words, in the future, God is going to allow His people to be sifted as wheat! He is going to use the agency of human government to accomplish this!"

Please be forewarned, God wants His children to prepare. It is time to strengthen your relationship and walk with God. This includes not only you but your family.

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
1 Thes 5:3

To him that has the ears to hear, hear these words.

God Bless You

Nathan Leal - A Watchman
June 5, 2008

[lastdaysman-banned]

Dear friend/brother, I agree it is most wise and for sure in obeadeance to warm many of persecution. But to give a no hope call to your readers that no rapture will take place comes against scripture. Christ is our blessed-hope, yes, to save us from the wrath to come. The word says we will be caught up with the Lord. Please tell me how do you understand Isaiah 26:19-21. Notice in vs 20, "shut thy doors doors about thee". Now take a look at Matt 25:10, "the door was shut". Also Rev 4, "The door was opened and the voice said come up". In the context of all these scriptures there is a theme. Isaiah and Matt the door was shut after Gods people entered and them the others left outside faced the wrath. In Rev 4 the door was opened and John went up and God said this is what will take place afterward. The afterward is the rest of the revelation of John. Now we must remember that the time of Jacobs trouble is for the jews and the tribulation will have those who will not accept the mark and be persecuted jews and gentiles alike. I once did not beleive the rapture but study and prayer and these scriptures as well as 2 Thess 2 and others convinced me to look up with hope. I pray you will see this hope as well. God bless you! I am curious how you understand the vs outlined?

[Nathan]

Dear friend/brother, I agree it is most wise and for sure in obeadeance to warm many of persecution. But to give a no hope call to your readers that no rapture will take place comes against scripture. Christ is our blessed-hope, yes, to save us from the wrath to come. The word says we will be caught up with the Lord. Please tell me how do you understand Isaiah 26:19-21. Notice in vs 20, "shut thy doors doors about thee". Now take a look at Matt 25:10, "the door was shut". Also Rev 4, "The door was opened and the voice said come up". In the context of all these scriptures there is a theme. Isaiah and Matt the door was shut after Gods people entered and them the others left outside faced the wrath. In Rev 4 the door was opened and John went up and God said this is what will take place afterward. The afterward is the rest of the revelation of John. Now we must remember that the time of Jacobs trouble is for the jews and the tribulation will have those who will not accept the mark and be persecuted jews and gentiles alike. I once did not beleive the rapture but study and prayer and these scriptures as well as 2 Thess 2 and others convinced me to look up with hope. I pray you will see this hope as well. God bless you! I am curious how you understand the vs outlined?

LastDays,

What I am about to say may sound "blunt" but I mean it in love.

If you wish to argue about a pre-trib rapture being scriptural, you are in the wrong forum.
The reason I say wrong is because you are not going to change my mind.

The pre trib rapture theory is one of the root causes of today's church being asleep and anemic.

Regarding me saying that there will be no rapture, the rapture was not part of the gospel promise. "Resurrection" was, please read the studies about the matter that I have posted in many of my articles in the website.

You said that the rapture is our hope, I am sorry but that is not true, Jesus is our hope.

Do you really think that you are better than a Chinese Christian who gets his head blown off for his faith. That is happening now in other parts of the world.

According to your theory, "hope= no bad stuff." Try telling that theory to the martyrs across the world, they would laugh at you. The rapture theory is held widely in the West but it is laughed at and scoffed by the saints abroad, Why? Because they are living persecution now.

To say that the threat of persecution takes away ones "hope" really exposes a weak faith that is not willing to take up the cross and die for Jesus.


You recited a few verses, but these verses have been manipulated to arrive at this "dated" and "erroneous" theory.

At one time I believed the theory that you are hoping for, unfortunately it does not past biblical scrutiny.
If your mind is made up, I cannot help you. If your rebuttals are cries for the real truth, you need to hide yourself with God and do an in depth study on the matter. Read the articles that I have in here about the matter and then pray about it.

I arrived at this conclusion after 25 years of end time study.

The majority of the people in this forum have arrived at a similar conclusion.

You are free to ask questions, I would love to help you to understand the truth but if you wish to argue this point, I would rather that you did it somewhere else.

I do not wish for this forum to become a boxing ring to argue about this "LIE".

Nathan

[lastdaysman-banned]

Nathan,

I don't know what came over me to think that throwing out a few scriptures would some how open your eyes. I mean that, foolish on my part. Maybe I am wrong to stand up for what I see in the scriptures to be truth in this forum, I don't know! Especially when I desire fellowship. But I must say your judgement of me is wrong. The Lord has put the persecuted saints on my heart in a big way and I do what I can for them. In no way do I think that I'm better than any especially the persecuted. For sure they are true saints most highly esteened in my book. I don't wish to argue but do believe a healthy debate on what can be debatable scriptures is good as long as we act in love toward each other. I'm not sure if the root cause of the sleeping of the saints is the rapture belief as you say. For sure the lack of preaching against sin, prosperity, kingdom now, Emergent church and other defilement has caused many to another gospel. And do know for sure that many of these teachers do not believe the rapture any longer. All I asked of you was to give me your thoughts on the vs I mentioned. But you accused me of thinking I'm better than some and minipulated my words to say the threat of persecution takes away hope. You say I'm free to ask questions but you do not want me to make any claims of a rapture in your forum. I can ask questions but I cannot have an opinion in your dictaorship. I was very curious how someone who does not believe the rapture understands the vs I outlined. If the rest of the people here at your forum have your attitute I will move on. My search will for fellowship will continue. Sorry to bother you Nathan.

[Nathan]

Nathan,

I don't know what came over me to think that throwing out a few scriptures would some how open your eyes. I mean that, foolish on my part. Maybe I am wrong to stand up for what I see in the scriptures to be truth in this forum, I don't know! Especially when I desire fellowship. But I must say your judgement of me is wrong. The Lord has put the persecuted saints on my heart in a big way and I do what I can for them. In no way do I think that I'm better than any especially the persecuted. For sure they are true saints most highly esteened in my book. I don't wish to argue but do believe a healthy debate on what can be debatable scriptures is good as long as we act in love toward each other. I'm not sure if the root cause of the sleeping of the saints is the rapture belief as you say. For sure the lack of preaching against sin, prosperity, kingdom now, Emergent church and other defilement has caused many to another gospel. And do know for sure that many of these teachers do not believe the rapture any longer. All I asked of you was to give me your thoughts on the vs I mentioned. But you accused me of thinking I'm better than some and minipulated my words to say the threat of persecution takes away hope. You say I'm free to ask questions but you do not want me to make any claims of a rapture in your forum. I can ask questions but I cannot have an opinion in your dictaorship. I was very curious how someone who does not believe the rapture understands the vs I outlined. If the rest of the people here at your forum have your attitute I will move on. My search will for fellowship will continue. Sorry to bother you Nathan.

Last Days,
At the beginning of my previous rebuttal, I started off by saying, "my words may seem blunt but I say them in love."

The reason that I do not want the topic of the rapture to become a boxing match is because of what is happening "right now"!

I am having to use up valuable time and debate this "topic" with you.

It seems that you did not hear what I previously said. I said that if you really want to know the truth about this matter, go read the articles that I wrote about it. Open up your Bible and take the matter to God with prayer.

Did you do that?

I did not mean to sound "judgmental" to you. When I said the statement, "do you think that you are better that those abroad?" It is a fair question.

Your attitude did not sound teachable, but instead it sounded like you want to teach me.

I am sorry but I do not need my eyes opened about this matter. They have ALREADY been opened.

If your intentions were noble and I misread them, then I sincerely apologize.

Nathan

[lastdaysman-banned]

Nathan,

Are you a pastor? I noticed someone addressed you as Pastor Nathan. I will try to navigate the site to find your teaching. If you could direct me that would be nice. Will this teaching address the vs I mentioned? The Lord has also called me to be a watchman and I do teach and exhort many. Do to the current apostasy I created a web page to direct those I meet. I know how you feel about the rapture but would like to know if you agree with everything else on the site. lastdaysalert.com. I do not make it a point to teach the rapture but just like you I warn of the coming persecution and to get ready. God willing I'm hoping soon to expand the site. I have a feeling somehow we will cross paths in the ministry of the saints. I have some friends who don't believe we will be caught up but we remain civil and non-judgemental. You took me all wrong and except your apology. It is funny that you would say I think I'm better than others due to what I believe. Just recently I told a brother that we are going to be persecuted and we must not think we are better than those going through the persecution now. I love Jesus Christ and still am in awe that he speaks to me and saved me. The word says we must love each other deeply and I do love you brother very much. What a privilage to know the Lord and teach his word.

[ellen]

For a long time I too used to believe in a quick exit from the planet's problems for all who place their trust in Christ. I even visit the Rapture Ready website, composed of all born again believers (or at least some would like to think they are) almost daily, mostly to catch up on current events and such. I used to use the scripture about 2 in the field, 1 taken, 1 left. Still confused over that one, because during the tribulation, who in the world will be in the field working? Still mulling over that one.

Over the past couple years though I've become quite disheartened with the attitude of the modern day believer. So many are extremely confident in this "rapture," thinking that because they belong to God that He will rescue them from the world's woes. The attitude is almost, I hate to say it, smug, like they feel entitled to escape what is coming. With that attitude, one can get almost "too comfortable" in thinking that everything will be okay and neglect their daily spiritual walk, thus easily losing their fear of the Lord. How can we honestly think we are so special, when our brothers and sisters around the globe are macheted and tortued in unbelievable ways, simply for their love for the Lord Jesus Christ?

When I first became saved, I used to have these "imaginations" of things to come. I say imaginations because they were not visions but I saw them as very real. One thing that was repeated over and over in my head was of "them" (military police?) dragging me out of my home kicking and screaming, "I will NEVER deny the name of Christ." Maybe it is an overactive imagination. Or it possibly could be a prewarning of things to come so that my faith can be built up. Jesus never promised an easy life. "In the world, you will have trouble." Guess we'll just have to wait and see.

One thing I do know though is that the tribulation period, if we are all still here, will separate the true believers from those playing games. I think it is time for all of us to be on our faces.

[Patricia Hamel]

Hi Nathan,

Yes, I agree with you. We are living in very serious times. Even
now things are being set into motion to bring about the one world
order. When I was first saved in 1974 I believed in the pre rapture
doctrine. Yet in my heart I used to say, what if there is no
rapture. It did not to take too many years to come to the conclusion
that it was a very comfortable thought but not the truth I saw in
the Word of God. We need to prepare the body of Christ for what
is coming on the earth. Persecution is coming and we need to
be prepared for it. God is calling His children to repentance and
a very close walk with Him. The sad part is that most of the
church is sleeping in the light and are going to be so shocked when
they realize that the church will go through the tribulation. Peoples
hearts are closed to the truth because of the false doctrine that
they have been taught. Let us be praying for the body of Christ
that the Lord will give us opportunity to speak the truth in love.

In His Love,
Patricia Hamel

[Dave]

Being like Jesus is what we need to do. I can't imagine being beat to a pulp and not complaining or saying stop. Then being nailed to a cross and asking my father to forgive them with all my heart. Not having a place to call my own. No shower, or clean robes. That is the kind of soul God demands. In the trib, that kind of living will ensure His care and protection. I need to be like that today! He would rather hear 6 words from the depths of your heart with sincere expectation than 1000 cryed without real faith. He allready knows your needs. Just talking to myself:

[Maria]

Hi Patricia,

The problem with the false doctrine of the pre-trib, is when the tribulation and spiritual battle is getting heavier, those people will loose their faith and believe in God, because they will then start thinking that God didn't exist, for He do not take them away from the trouble.

For me, it is better to know what you can expect, than getting by surprize.

Another fact that ads to the problem is that most people don't believe that the Messiah's return is so very near.

[Maria]

Being like Jesus is what we need to do. I can't imagine being beat to a pulp and not complaining or saying stop. Then being nailed to a cross and asking my father to forgive them with all my heart. Not having a place to call my own. No shower, or clean robes. That is the kind of soul God demands. In the trib, that kind of living will ensure His care and protection. I need to be like that today! He would rather hear 6 words from the depths of your heart with sincere expectation than 1000 cryed without real faith. He allready knows your needs. Just talking to myself:

Dear Dave,

This is brilliant. Thank you.

[gibmom]

Nathan,

I'm curious to know what you think the restrainer is in 2 Thess 2?

[Geo]

Most of us know people who believe in a pre-tribulation rapture. As a
result, such are not building up their most holy faith to endure to
the END of this Antichrist War on the Saints. Thinking one will be
raptured BEFORE the antichrist war on the saints is NOT good
preparation to endure to the END of such a war. The Lord made it
explicit that IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation is when He sends His
angels for His elect. Matt 24:29-31. Perhaps a short true history of
who, how, and when the pre-tribulation rapture doctrines originated
would be helpful for you to help those whom you know to be in denial
or failing to prepare because of this Jesuit doctrine. Jesuit? Yes,
two Jesuit priests laid the foundations of the pre-trib rapture
doctrine, unknown in the history of the Church, prior to the
Reformation.

At the time of the Reformation, the vast majority of Protestants were
convinced that the Pope was the personification of the antichrist.
Most today now understand the pope to be the second beast, the false
prophet of the antichrist prince. However, at the time of the
Reformation, it was universally believed by all Protestants, that the
Roman Church was the Harlot Religion System of Revelation seventeen.
Today there is still good cause to see the Roman Church as the
religious component of Babylon, meaning confusion, in the antichrist
war on the saints.

This understanding that the Roman Church is the Religious Babylon
brought millions of believers out of the Roman Catholic religious
system, during the Reformation. Understanding that the Roman Church
is the religious component of the confusion of Babylon, in the
antichrist war on the saints in these last days, will also bring
millions from the bondage of the Roman Church to freedom in Christ.

Because of how many during the Reformation saw the Roman Church as
the Babylon harlot of Religion, it became expedient for certain Roman
theologians to turn the attention of the people away from the Papacy.
Indeed the Jesuits were responsible for the origin of the pre-
tribulation rapture doctrines. It was two Jesuit priests who rightly
deserve the title as the founders of pre-tribulation rapture
doctrines. These two Jesuits invented a counter-interpretation to
that held unanimously by the Protestants. They taught that the
revelation of the antichrist was at some far distant date. In the
entire history of the Church prior to the writings of these two
Jesuit priests all believed the eminent Resurrection, Rapture, and
Return of the Lord was a single simultaneous event, happening in the
twinkling of an eye, on the last day, at the last trump. When is the
Last Day? When is the Last Trump?

It was a Jesuit priest named Ribera who, in the days of the
Reformation, first taught the basic ideas of the pre-tribulation
rapture. Just putting the revealing of the antichrist way off in the
future was a very effective way of taking the heat off of the Papacy
during the Reformation. Then another Jesuit priest named Emmanuel
Lacunza, built on Ribera's teachings and wrote a book called The
Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty. True to Jesuit style and
stealth, Lacunza knew the Protestants were not going to widely
receive a book written by a Jesuit priest. The Jesuit, Lacunza,
therefore wrote his book under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben Ezra.
This fictitious Rabbi Ben Ezra, was presented in Lacunza's book as a
scholarly Jewish Rabbi who had accepted Christ as his Savior. By this
ploy the Jesuit Lacunza was able to get his book to have a good
reception in the Protestant world. No Protestants in the Reformation
era would have allowed a copy of The Coming of Messiah in Glory and
Majesty in their homes if they had any idea that the book was written
by a Jesuit.

Because Lacunza presented the book as written by a scholarly Jewish
Rabbi who had become a Christian believer in the Lord Jesus Christ,
he knew the Protestants would love and receive his Jesuit book. The
Jesuits certainly have not gotten less subtle, and it does not seem
the Church has gotten more discerning. Lacunza's book, The Coming of
Messiah in Glory and Majesty, was a very successful, elaborate
forgery. In his book, Lacunza taught the new idea that Jesus returns
TWICE, or TWO Second Comings. The Jesuit Lacunza was the first in all
history to teach two second comings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Lacunza
taught that at the first stage of His return He raptures His Church
so they can escape the reign of the future antichrist. His book was
first published in Spanish in the 1812.

Shortly after Lacunza's book was published, a Protestant leader in
England by the name of Edward Irving discovered Lacunza's book.
Edward Irving translated Lacunza's book into English in 1827. The
Encyclopedia Britannica, volume 12, 1966 issue, pages 648-649,
describe Edward Irving and the controversy over his teachings in
Scotland and England in the early 1800's. He began to
teach a "rapture of the Church", after a young Scottish girl by the
name of Margaret MacDonald went into a trance and described a vision
in which she said she saw the Saints leaving the earth at the return
of the Lord, before the tribulation. Her trance and vision took place
in the spring of 1830, while living in Port Glasgow, Scotland.
Her "revelation" was recorded in a book written by R. N. Norton and
printed in London in 1861.

John Nelson Darby was a leader and prolific writer among the Plymouth
Brethren. Darby was part of the Irvingite movement. He was strongly
influenced by Irving, and Lucunza's book which Irving had translated
into English, and particularly by the book by Norton, of the vision
of Margret MacDonald. By 1850 John Darby had organized the Jesuit
fraud of TWO second comings of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the pre-
tribulation rapture fraud, into a system of prophetic teachings
called dispensationalism.

In 1860's John Darby was put on the payroll of the British East India
company. The British East India Company has historically been held by
the Illuminati blood lines of European royalty, (Greek kings as
Daniel would call them). John Darby was sent to America with the
specific Illuminati goal of weakening the strong faith of American
Christians. Darby's dispensationalism was sure to be successful in
America in that purpose for which he was put on the Illuminati payroll.

Americans were and have been proven to be particularly easy to be
taken by the Jesuit originated, non-scriptural, doctrines of pre-trib
lala land. The reason is because of what is the make up of the people
group known as Americans. Perhaps the best way of describing the
American people group is one which came from a stock of hard working,
risk taking, God fearing, people, who delight in making plans and
take special delight in having their plans come together. Americans
are good planners. As a people group they do not even want God
messing up their plans, unless He would pouf them out in a fabled pre-
trib rapture to heaven before anything bad would happen to otherwise
mess up their plans.

In America in the 1860's Darby's dispensational TWO SECOND COMINGS
dispensational interpretations met with wide open reception across
the entire spectrum of American Protestant and biblical Christianity.
A lawyer of very dubious character who had become a Congregationalist
preacher, named C.I. Scofield came under the influence of Darby and
the Plymouth Brethren. That brought the Scofield Reference bible and
most know the history from that point certainly has led to the great
apostasy, not the rapture, but the great falling away from The Faith.

For a good, short, clear verification of this history I would just
recommend looking at the article title DISPENSATION which James L.
Blevins wrote in the Holman Bible Dictionary. Perhaps the best and most
comprehensive work on the subject of the history and background of
pre-trib rapture doctrines has been done by Dave Macpherson.
The best source of truth on the subject however, is the more
sure word written in the KJV Holy Bible.

The Scofield Reference Bible was destined to have a tremendous impact
upon the beliefs of many. There were three million copies published
in the first 50 years. Through this Bible, Scofield carried the
teaching of the TWO Second Comings and the two stage rapture to
almost the whole of American Christianity. It is truly amazing when
one finds that this TWO Second Comings, and a pre-tribulation rapture
for the super duper saints, and three and a half years of hell on
earth for the not so super duper saints, is NOT supported by a single
verse of scripture in context rightly divided by the Holy Ghost.
Astonishing, yet as Fly told Babe – That is just the way things are.
Also, The Lord Jesus Christ said it would be like this – that in
these last days of such strong delusion, with such a vast majority of
false teachers having been taught these Jesuit doctrines, in the
Jesuit infiltrated Protestant seminaries, - Mat 24:24 For there shall
arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs
and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive
the very elect.

The truth train of history of pre-trib rapture doctrine begins with
two Jesuit priests. The first was named Ribera. His writings
influenced the Jesuit priest Lacunza. Lacunza influenced Irving,
Irving influenced Darby, Darby influenced Scofield, Scofield and
Darby influenced D.L. Moody, and Moody influenced a very large part
of evangelical Christianity, and almost the entire Pentecostal
movement. Someone once said all roads lead to Rome, and in
the case of the pre-trib rapture doctrines that remains accurate.

by Jim Searcy

[Dave]

Rapture talk never goes anywhere but south. We need to live everyday like the soldiers in the wars. Be fully prepared and well trained. That means to search your heart for any back doors and to listen for Gods instructions. No matter how things unfold He will see us thru if we will listen and follow His orders. Like our soldiers we need to be constantly on guard and well equipped. Then maybe one night during the battle the General will come without warning and say "everybody move! Get to the plane, were going home! Wars over!!!"

[Patricia Hamel]

Hi Maria,
Sorry that I missed your comment to me. Yes sister I agree with you.
It leaves people totally unprepared for what is ahead. There will be
a time that the Lord will use us with these ones who do not see but
how much better it would have been had they had eyes to see
beforehand.

Yes, I thank the Lord that He has revealed this to me. The thought of
persecution is not pleasant but we are told that all those that live Godly
in Christ Jesus will suffer persecution. Some lesser and some more but
we just have to look at other countries and see their suffering for the
name of Jesus and are not exempt. It is the grace of God that we have
come this far. We can see things tightening daily though and we are
truly living in the end times.

God Bless You Dear Sister and keep you in His love,
Patricia

[WecryMercy]

Just wanted to pull this forward for Geilah.. :)

[Steph3379]

It would be a privelege to suffer and die for Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior


If tossed in prison, what an opportunity to witness to the lost for our Lord. Glory be to God our King, our Redeemer.


I've been saved for over 30 years and never did figire out if the Blessed Hope is before during after. One thing, the Lord says blessed are they who are in the first rapture (Rev ?)


p.s. I didn't vote for clinton nor bo, they both gave me the creeps, but as God commands, I have always prayed for our leaders and all who are in charge over us.


I know for quite awhile that we are in the end of times, but thanks to your broadcasts, I'm getting ready with supplies as much as I can afford. Still need a lot of things.

I see what's going on, watch the news, the rumors of war and apocolyptic end times, yet at least for now, I don't feel afraid. Maybe the Lord prepared me when I was between infancy-toddler and ages 3-7 (diagnosed with the mind of a 2 yr old at age 7 - still have some kind of brain-damage). My twin and I endured much suffering of starvation daily beatings humilation torture (attempted killings by (certain guardians) during those dark and lonely yrs. So I don't know. I'm very sensitive and hurt easliy.

I have severe osteoporosis, knees are bone on bone, cts, tb exposure, ect.. I don't know if I can stand a beating or other stuff from cop soldiers. Well whatever. Oh that's right, since I'm 58 I suppose once I turn 60 I'm considered an old worthless piece of nothing in the new world order. So be it

Last week in Ocean City, a busdriver told me that in Canada, there's no MRIs, Canadaian Health care doesn't allow anyone over 60 to get certain things, or maybe nothing. a woman was on the waiting list for a kidney for a few years. she turned 60 and they took her name off the waiting list. She survived 10 months and died. Shouldn't ob have stated in campaigns, healthcare for all, just like Canada.

Oh, one more thing, now I know why the 'swearing in ceremony' holding A. Lincoln's Bible, but I never saw his hand on it (his hand was below the podeum) was messed up accidently? the second time, he must have had his hand on the kuran ( I don't know). At this point I don't care. Bible is the Word of God and is Truth !! That is what matters.
hugs,


Always in prayer to our Lord,


steph

[willybob]

John Darby brought the lie over from England, in 1870. It is new age nonsence
like so many other cults which were started in the 1800s. Then escolated by Schofield , with the Rothchilds financing.

Before 1830 no one had ever head of this Cult. It is the largest of cults, now and is designed for Christians to turn back to Hebrew Roots, and wind up forfieting their birth right.

EDOMITES understand very well who Spititual Israel is, and fear it as their no1 threat, as did the EDOMITES in the Temple, at the time of Jesus. Christians do not known who Israel is, and the fact that it was reconfigured to spiritual Israel at the cross. They are going to be giving up their birth right And returning to EDOM first theology. Snare LUKE 21.:duh::duh::duh:

It is also a shame for it will decieve good Jewish people who want to be saved also.

My people are (destroyed) from the lack of knowledge= (knowimg) =(truth)

Wide is the raod to (destruction) and MANY will find it.

It does not say they are destroyed from lack of (love)

Yes some Christians understand this, and will figure it out. These will be the multitudes who come out of the Churches, same as the multitudes who came out when Jesus was ministering , in the wilderness.

The purpose driven Churches have turned it into a (group love, and hug )
religion.:waving2::waving2::waving2:

LOVE of money , is the root of all evil.sad1.gifsad1.gifsad1.gif

God Blss
Bill

[Princess of Heaven]

i was a solid pre tribber, nope not moving from that spot :shakehead:
BUT then the Lord has taken me on a new journey, a journey where i lsiten to Him not mans word...and trust me no one wants to go home more than in do..
( I miss my daughter). then i started to lean mid trib, til i really studied 2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

well that simply moved me real fast from pre to mid to we will be here at least to see the AoD, im still on this journey, however im leaning to post trib, maybe a pre wrath. just before the the DOLT, still digging where that lies... i have read many things, but God needs to reveal to me when the DOTL is. i am hoping by joining here i can help find the answers i seek... as i said its a journey and i have been on it for 2 months now...

boy was i surprised cuz i said there is no way it was post trib, but to my wonderin eyes, it very probably is...

amazing when you stop listening to man and listen to God, what you learn..

[willybob]

I think the Raptor, was a flesh eating monstor, Seems similiar to that of the purpose of the Rapture. To trick Christians into the snare in Luke 21

Intended to Beguile them into selling their birth right.

[Princess of Heaven]

i was a solid pre tribber, nope not moving from that spot :shakehead:
BUT then the Lord has taken me on a new journey, a journey where i lsiten to Him not mans word...and trust me no one wants to go home more than in do..
( I miss my daughter). then i started to lean mid trib, til i really studied 2 Thessalonians 2

1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

well that simply moved me real fast from pre to mid to we will be here at least to see the AoD, im still on this journey, however im leaning to post trib, maybe a pre wrath. just before the the DOLT, still digging where that lies... i have read many things, but God needs to reveal to me when the DOTL is. i am hoping by joining here i can help find the answers i seek... as i said its a journey and i have been on it for 2 months now...

boy was i surprised cuz i said there is no way it was post trib, but to my wonderin eyes, it very probably is...

amazing when you stop listening to man and listen to God, what you learn..


bumping for reason to see why i came here.....

[BabeinChrist]

This whole pre-trib thing has been sort of a "pet peeve" of mine......
When I first accepted Christ as my Savior, I listened to preachers and their rapture assurances.

But then I ran into a snag.... I checked The Bible.
And comparing preachers' word to His Word....no contest!!!!

[debonnaire]

amen, brethren !

The first disciples did not had this problem with pre-trib/post-trib division.

They asked Jesus what are the signs of His coming , and Jesus answered what they asked.

Jesus did not answered them with a secret doctrine of a secret rapture.

Jesus said His coming would be visible for all

"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. [Mathew 24:29-30]

mind you, that there will be servants of the Lord who will be busy preaching/teaching the Word of God (and not doctrines of men) until the end.

"Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. [Mathew 24:45-46]

may we be counted as faithful and wise servants.

[BabeinChrist]

I agree, Debonnaire....

But sadly, there are many who steadfastly claim that Paul and then the Early Church fathers spoke of it.....which none of them did, if you read their writings as they are written....

[outcast]

I think why so many people believe in the rapture are for these two scriptures. I haven't found a way to refute them. No matter what my arguements may have been, I can't explain them away or act like they don't exist. Maybe some one on the forum can help. I have always believed if I have 10 scriptures to back up my beliefs and the Lord gives me one that contradicts that belief, I need to change my belief, not try to fit the scripture into my belief. Its the other 10 I need to understand differently. God doesn't contradict himself. the first scripture is in Luke where Jesus is talking about the last days, Luke 21:34-36 "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkeness, and cares of this life, and that day come upon you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. "WATCH therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man. " Jesus said what he meant and he meant what he said. Why would he tell us to watch and pray to escape all these things if we are still going to be here. Where is the Son of Man. As far as I know he is in heaven. To say anything different we call Jesus a liar. We all know that the seven churches in Revelations are all still consistant with todays church. Good and bad. we have their bad traits as well as their good. The promises for them are for us, the blessings as well as the rebukes. To the church of Philadelphia, Revelation 3:10-11 "Because you have kept My commandment to persevere, I also will keep you from that hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." "Behold, I come quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown. We know that hour he is talking about is the tribulation period. He tells this group of believers he will keep them, the only thing that I can understand how he does that goes back to Luke 21:34-36. Please help if you can.

[debonnaire]

Hi Outcast :waving2:

will try to help a bit...


To the church of Philadelphia, Revelation 3:10-11 "Because you have kept My commandment to persevere, I also will keep you from that hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." "Behold, I come quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

We know that hour he is talking about is the tribulation period. He tells this group of believers he will keep them, the only thing that I can understand how he does that goes back to Luke 21:34-36.


Luke 21:34-36 "But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkeness, and cares of this life, and that day come upon you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. "WATCH therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to ESCAPE all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man. "

Jesus said what he meant and he meant what he said. Why would he tell us to watch and pray to escape all these things if we are still going to be here. Where is the Son of Man. As far as I know he is in heaven.


Yes the Son of Man is in heaven.... And overvomers will stand before Him.
But this verse taken alone does not say WHEN the disciples will stand before Him. The « when » is understood by the context of the whole passage.
This verse taken alone says nothing about a Pre-Trib rapture or a Post-Trib rapture. We must look more deeply to understand.

The possible confusion (confusion only in man’s understanding) is because of the meaning of the words « escape » and « keep ». A whole doctrine seems to revolve around the interpretation of these words.

There can be different interpretations of the word escape.
1/ people can escape things if they are not there ; yes
but
2/ they also escape while still in the world if they are not taken by this snare that is coming upon the world.

Psalm 91 says that those who live in the shelter of the Most High are delivered from plagues and beasts.
Psalm 91 is particularly pertinent for the end-times.
God says that no evil will conquer them , He will send angels to keep them , they will tread upon the lion and the dragon, upon young lions and snakes. They will see the reward of the wicked. The most High will be with them in trouble, and He will show them salvation.

If God says that He will send angels to keep them, that means that they are NOT in Heaven, for in Heaven nobody has to be kept.

If God says He will be with them in time of trouble, that means that they shall not be in heaven, for there is no trouble in heaven.

Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my Name. (verse 14)

This must understood within the context of the Gospel. Jesus said that those who believe , in His Name they will walk on scorpions and serpents, and on the whole power of the enemy.
All authority has been given to the Son of Man , and He has made those who believe in Him sit with Him in the heavenlies.
The overcomers are walking with Him who has overcome all things. Those who are born of God keep themselves from evil , and the Evil one don’t touch them, as John wrote.
The God of peace will crush Satan under His feet.
We are kept from the great hour of trial if we don’t deny His Name and keep His word. With faith and perseverance...
If we deny Him, He will deny us
If we suffer with Him , we shall reign with Him
Some will be tempted to deny Christ when things will get tougher.
But Jesus says that when we shall see these things , we are said to rise up our heads, for our deliverance comes nigh.

The word « escape » and « kept » must be understood as « being delivered » and « being safe in Him » whatever can befall.

We are walking towards our deliverance and salvation (although we are already saved in Hope and spirit).
Those who walk awake in Him will stand before Him.
they are not burdened by what people of the world are burdened with. They pray and watch. They see the night coming and the King of the kingdom.

We sit in the heavenlies , but we are told to walk , so to stand.
There is no man walking or standing who can sleep

The overcomers will be able to escape the snares of the greta Dragon who will be more angry , and the great coming Temptation. (as for the plagues, why worrying about plagues, God has authority over them as Revelation says).

So we can take these isolated verses in Luke 21 and Revelation 3 to enforce some hypothetical pre-Trib doctrine , but that does not match up with the full Council of God.
Saying that the word « escape » means « litterally escaping from the word » is an escape from the full Council of God.

Father, keep us from the Great Temptation coming , and deliver us from Evil.

[Traveler]

This may help clarify things a bit,

The antichrist cannot rise to open power if there are a whole lot of spirit filled Christians praying against him, after all they have the authority to use Christ’s name and he has to obey them.

So he has to get rid of the Christians first. this is our tribulation. The antichrist will not be directing his efforts against the world he wants to rule, he will be directing his efforts against the Christians that he wishes to destroy. So we are going to be coming under a lot of persecution and the powers of the holy people are going to be destroyed just as Daniel prophesied.

But the great tribulation is dealt out from the throne room of God himself in the forms of the trumpets and bowls of wrath, this is Gods reply for what the earth has done to his people. First the warnings of the trumpets and then the full wrath.

Now I know this is just me but I draw a distinction between the Apocalypse and The great tribulation. In the Apocalypse the spirit of this world is setting out to destroy the Church which you can see starting up all around you. But in the great tribulation it is God passing Judgment on this earth for doing so.

That would put the rapture as post Apocalypse but pre tribulation. However if you lump the Apocalypse and tribulation together then the rapture is mid tribulation.

Either way we are going to be in for a rough time before we are gathered out of here. In effect we will only be gathered when things have gotten so bad that the church is no longer able to fulfill its commission.

[debonnaire]

The commission will be fullfilled. Yes. Great persecution is coming. Yes.

Saints overcame physically but overcomers spiritually. :cross:


Now I know this is just me but I draw a distinction between the Apocalypse and The great tribulation. In the Apocalypse the spirit of this world is setting out to destroy the Church which you can see starting up all around you. But in the great tribulation it is God passing Judgment on this earth for doing so.

That would put the rapture as post Apocalypse but pre tribulation. However if you lump the Apocalypse and tribulation together then the rapture is mid tribulation.


Trav , that would help if we would all use the same terms :]

What you call « tribulation », others who have the same belief than you would call it « wrath » (they are « post-trib » when you call yourself « mid-trib ») :]

If we use Jesus’s terms in Mathew 24
There is a period called « the beginning of sorrows »
Then a period named « the great Tribulation »
Then Jesus returns (gathering of the saints)
What is left after that is the rest of the wrath of God.

[Traveler]

Well that explains why I have been beating my head against the brick wall. It's all in the terminology.

Sorry but I studied this alone so I was useing the terms I saw in the scriptures but what you say makes good sense as well.

[All4Him]

I think you are what they call "Pre-Wrath" Trav. At least that's what I've been called, and seems like we've pretty much came to the same conclusion.

Pre-trib: we fly before the tribulation
mid-trib: we fly at the abomination of desolation
Pre-Wrath: we fly at the first word of wrath (Rev.6)
Post-trib: we fly at the ressurection

[Princess of Heaven]

I think you are what they call "Pre-Wrath" Trav. At least that's what I've been called, and seems like we've pretty much came to the same conclusion.

Pre-trib: we fly before the tribulation
mid-trib: we fly at the abomination of desolation
Pre-Wrath: we fly at the first word of wrath (Rev.6)
Post-trib: we fly at the ressurectioni guess i would be post trib i see us flying away at the 7th trumpet right before Armageddon

[Goldmoon]

Yep right when the sun and moon go dark, and everything is shaken (Pole Shift?)

We will see the sign of the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power, and GLORY!

He will be radiating with light!

EPIC! :)

[Barbie9122]

i guess i would be post trib i see us flying away at the 7th trumpet right before Armageddon

I agree with this also. :waving2:

[Princess of Heaven]

I agree with this also. :waving2:hey Barbie how it going?

[heluvsme]

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

Zep 1:14-18 The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,
A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.
And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the LORD: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.
Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.


Rev 6:12-17 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Rev 13:4-7 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

[LittleLittle]

Rapture... there is no rapture. We are def. promised persecution.
John the Baptist said "Who WARNED you to flee from the wrath to come?"

I look forward to the persecution. Ive had it all my life anyway. :lightning:

[ActionJackson]

Sorry No Rapture, but Persecution is Coming!
Nathan Leal - June 5, 2008

6 "And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

10 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another."
Matthew 24:6-10

Today's western church is asleep and deceived under a false sense of security.

It is amazing that a deception that is clearly unbiblical has taken such a strong hold of western theology.

If you were to ask the average Christian, "What is the Rapture?" You will most likely hear, "Well, that is when God takes all the Christians off of the earth before the horrible tribulation starts!"

To seek the truth from God, we must be totally honest with ourselves.

In reading the above verse from Matthew 24, we see Jesus mentioning "the beginning of sorrows".

This period in the end times includes:
1. Wars and rumors of war
2. Famines
3. Pestilence
4. Earthquakes in various places

Popular TV preachers will recite these verses to convince their listeners that we are indeed in the end times. They will then say, " ...Therefore the Rapture is about to happen! It could happen, right now, while we are sitting here!"

But let us again examine the words of Jesus:

"All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you..."

The part that they do NOT mention is what we see in verse 9 of Matthew 24; "...Then they will deliver you up "

Now where do we find the "Rapture" happening between verse 8 and verse 9? We don't! What we do find is the "beginning of sorrows" going right into Christian persecution (..delivered up..). In addition to persecution, we read Jesus saying, "...they will deliver you up to TRIBULATION!"

In other words, according to the words of Jesus, Christians are going to be persecuted in tribulation! Or in the "Tribulation"!

Jesus said, "I am the Way, the TRUTH and the Life." He also said that when the Holy Spirit came, He would lead us into all Truth. If we are truly Disciples of Christ, we must accept ALL truth, no matter where it leads.

Someday, in the future, Christians are going to begin facing persecution, arrest and death. According to Jesus, "Then they will deliver you up...And then many will be offended, will betray one another,..." the coming persecution will occur because people in the church will begin "turning in" the true Saints of God to government authorities!

Imagine this! Christians, or actually "lukewarm hypocrites" will become Judas Iscariots to the true saints of God. How could this be?

How it will Happen

The Bible says, "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie." 2 Thess. 2:11

A lie! What kind of lie would possibly make people believe that it is a good thing to "tattle" on fellow Christians and have them incarcerated into prison?

Are you ready? Four Words. Four simple words that will convince ignorant people to do the inconceivable. The four words are "The War on Terror!"

In our post 911 world, the U.S. Government has legislated new laws that have essentially erased the constitutional rights to the citizenry.

The "War on Terror", on paper sounds like a good thing. In a perfect world, these laws would be used to catch members of radical groups who would do us harm.

Unfortunately, the way that these laws have been written leaves a very broad definition of "terrorists" and "enemy combatants". And these laws in the hands of a self-serving leader, give the American Government the latitude for abuse to U.S. citizens and Christians.

Would our dear "Christian" President use these laws against God's people? Hopefully not. But we do not know who our future president will be.

Coming to America!

Many Christian falsely believe that dictatorial rule could never come to the land of the "free", the United States. But friends, all of the laws are already in place to do just that!

Are these laws going to be abused in the near future? In the future, yes! In the NEAR future, I do not know!

Many Christians have also stated, "Well, I have nothing to hide. I am good. Those laws would not be used against me!" Again, friends, in a perfect world that is true, they would not. Unfortunately, we do not live in a perfect world.

Thus the heart of this message, "To all, that will hear these words, in the future, God is going to allow His people to be sifted as wheat! He is going to use the agency of human government to accomplish this!"

Please be forewarned, God wants His children to prepare. It is time to strengthen your relationship and walk with God. This includes not only you but your family.

"For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
1 Thes 5:3

To him that has the ears to hear, hear these words.

God Bless You

Nathan Leal - A Watchman
June 5, 2008


+10,000

Proverbs 2:21-22,
"21For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.
22But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it."

Proverbs 10:29-30,
"29The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.
30The righteous shall never be removed: but the wicked shall not inhabit the earth."

Psalms 37:29,
"29The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."

John 17:15,
"15I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil."

The above verses indicate that the wicked, rather than the righteous, shall be taken away or removed. That possible conclusion is witnessed to by the following passage:

Matthew 13:38-43,
"38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

A very popular pro-rapture passage is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17. It reads thusly:

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17,
"16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Please note that "the dead in Christ shall rise first" when Christ returns at the sound of the "trump of God." I would like to address the timing of exactly when the dead shall rise as well as the timing of this "trump of God."

John 6:40,
"40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44,
"44No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:54,
"54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day."

Note that the dead do not rise until "the last day" at the sound of the trump of God. Now what is the "trump of God?" The 7 trumps are plainly listed in Revelation in chronological order:

Revelation 8:2, "2And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets."
Revelation 8:7, "7The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, ..."
Revelation 8:8, "8And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;"
Revelation 8:10, " 10And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp ..."
Revelation 8:12, " 12And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, ..."
Revelation 9:1, "1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit."
Revelation 9:13, "13And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,"
Revelation 11:15, "15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."


1 Corinthians 15:52 tells us when the dead shall be raised in relation to the trumps of God:

1 Corinthians 15:52,
"52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

So we know that the dead shall be raised on the last day at the sound of the last trump. We know that Yahshua doesn't return until after the tribulation of those days at "the last day."

It's the last (7th) and final trump of God that announces Christ's victory over evil. The first 6 trumps announce various phases of tribulation. This is witnessed by the following passage:

Matthew 24:29-31,
"29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Christ clearly returns "after the tribulation of those days."

The Kingdom of God will be right here on earth (IMO):

Revelation 21:10,
"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,"

Matthew 6:10, "Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven."

Psalms 37:29,
"29The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever."

[willybob]

What is perceived to be the rapture is actually the reckoning. In The tribulation Christ is going to reckon with his people. Judgement comes 1st to the house of God. No rapture but truly there is going to be a reckoning is. (settleling of accounts) Cains offering was of no accountance.

Matthew 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Bill

[ActionJackson]

What is perceived to be the rapture is actually the reckoning. In The tribulation Christ is going to reckon with his people. Judgement comes 1st to the house of God. No rapture but truly there is going to be a reckoning is. (settleling of accounts) Cains offering was of no accountance.

Matthew 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

Matthew 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

Luke 22:37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Romans 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 4:10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.

Romans 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Romans 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Bill

Interesting. To be honest ... this is my biggest concern, personally. James says that faith without works is dead being alone. I am not a member of a church as I haven't been able to find a Christ-centered, Bible-believing church in my area. Most either teach the rapture hoax; or use a spurious version of the Bible; or do a lot of babbling and call it "tongues"; or accept the doctrine of "universalism" (everyone will find salvation eventually regardless of their actions and worldview here on earth); or serve two masters [5010(c)3 tax exempt church] serving both Jesus Christ as well as the IRS and the state; etc.

I wonder if my "talents" are being multiplied? I wonder if I am one of the 5 virgins with oil in my lamp or if my lamp is empty. I said a fervent prayer yesterday. I prayed that God would bring someone into my life whom I could help and bring the gospel message to. I don't want to find myself outside of the door of the marriage chamber where Christ will say "I know you not."

[willybob]

Interesting. To be honest ... this is my biggest concern, personally. James says that faith without works is dead being alone. I am not a member of a church as I haven't been able to find a Christ-centered, Bible-believing church in my area. Most either teach the rapture hoax; or use a spurious version of the Bible; or do a lot of babbling and call it "tongues"; or accept the doctrine of "universalism" (everyone will find salvation eventually regardless of their actions and worldview here on earth); or serve two masters [5010(c)3 tax exempt church] serving both Jesus Christ as well as the IRS and the state; etc.

I wonder if my "talents" are being multiplied? I wonder if I am one of the 5 virgins with oil in my lamp or if my lamp is empty. I said a fervent prayer yesterday. I prayed that God would bring someone into my life whom I could help and bring the gospel message to. I don't want to find myself outside of the door of the marriage chamber where Christ will say "I know you not."


What we are supposed to be doing now is training, equiping ourselves and growing in the word as well as the faith. The time will come when the thrid part of multitudes (five dumb virgins) will be so confounded from the tribulation, and the fall of the leavened church, that they will be seeking you.

They will come looking for you. Remember most will not want the truth, but some will. The tribulation is designed to sift out HIS third part of the multitudes.

God Bless
Bill

[ray]

Originally Posted by ActionJackson View Post
Interesting. To be honest ... this is my biggest concern, personally. James says that faith without works is dead being alone. I am not a member of a church as I haven't been able to find a Christ-centered, Bible-believing church in my area. Most either teach the rapture hoax; or use a spurious version of the Bible; or do a lot of babbling and call it "tongues"; or accept the doctrine of "universalism" (everyone will find salvation eventually regardless of their actions and worldview here on earth); or serve two masters [5010(c)3 tax exempt church] serving both Jesus Christ as well as the IRS and the state; etc.

I wonder if my "talents" are being multiplied? I wonder if I am one of the 5 virgins with oil in my lamp or if my lamp is empty. I said a fervent prayer yesterday. I prayed that God would bring someone into my life whom I could help and bring the gospel message to. I don't want to find myself outside of the door of the marriage chamber where Christ will say "I know you not."

.................................................. ............
Action, this is a very serious concern that you have, i have compassion for those who are not sure of their salvation, i was in that place as well at one time.I just encourage you to stand and claim the promises of God.For starters, do you believe you are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, if so, then you are one of the virgins with oil in their lamp.
As to your question regarding faith without works is dead, this is an often misunderstood concept that leaves many christians in doubt and or in guilt.
Basicly , what this passage is saying is that the fruit of faith is works,God gives to each person talents accordingly, we need to be faithful and obedient with the talents that we are given.Do not be discouraged when you see people to whom a lot is given, they are required to give much.Start with the small things , being obedient to His word and see where the Lord leads you from there.
God bless

[farmer433_wife]

:waving3: hello brothers and sisters I just read the post and prayed and then got into a study and here are some scriptures I was lead to share I do believe the word clearing tells us to be spiritually prepared for the coming persecution as the children of God. here is where I was lead to share hope it blesses you as it blessed me. I believe we will go through tribulation but we won't see the wrath as believers that stand and faint not as we have Christ Jesus and he will be with us inside our heart and sealing our mind and soul untill we are called up to stand in his presence. Hallelujah to Almighty God.

Romans 8- 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. 28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? 32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? 33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth. 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


1 Peter 4- 11 If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God; if any man minister, let him do it as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen. 12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator

2 Corinthians 1:5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ. 6 And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation. 7 And our hope of you is stedfast, knowing, that as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation.

Revelation 7:11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Revelation 7:9 - After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;


Thank you Jesus for without you we would be forever Lost, You are so worthy for you are our peace our hope.

Child of our Everlasting Father :peace: sister Donita farmer433_wife